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autonomy
February 2010 
Your God is Not My God (...or, Don't Proselytize at Me!)
Posted on Oct 14th, 2008
by 
boogie
boogie
i do believe each individual has a personal relationship with the Divine
it's a personal thing, only found within
nobody else can tell you what it is
each of us has our own unique perspective on what that is
it doesn't have to be the same as what anyone else finds within themselves
language creates a barrier when attempting to talk about these things
it's completely indescribable, words do not work
so we use vague, meaningless terms that don't mean anything
and these vague words make us feel less alone
give us the illusion that others share our beliefs
but when we find better words to talk about what we find when we look within,
we realize that our perceptions differ much more than upon first glance
no two people can agree 100% on anything,
not and still be thinking for themselves, that is.
and there's the problem,
we let the group think for us
go along with the majority
in order to remain part of the group.
maybe it's from fear of being alone
or maybe it's the [false] belief
that there is strength and/or safety in numbers
or maybe it's something else, i don't know.
the question i have always asked myself is,
"Is it worth it, just to belong and be accepted,
if that means i have to give up my autonomy,
my right to think for myself, when what i believe does not agree
with what everyone else thinks i should believe?"
it's a personal thing, only found within
nobody else can tell you what it is
each of us has our own unique perspective on what that is
it doesn't have to be the same as what anyone else finds within themselves
language creates a barrier when attempting to talk about these things
it's completely indescribable, words do not work
so we use vague, meaningless terms that don't mean anything
and these vague words make us feel less alone
give us the illusion that others share our beliefs
but when we find better words to talk about what we find when we look within,
we realize that our perceptions differ much more than upon first glance
no two people can agree 100% on anything,
not and still be thinking for themselves, that is.
and there's the problem,
we let the group think for us
go along with the majority
in order to remain part of the group.
maybe it's from fear of being alone
or maybe it's the [false] belief
that there is strength and/or safety in numbers
or maybe it's something else, i don't know.
the question i have always asked myself is,
"Is it worth it, just to belong and be accepted,
if that means i have to give up my autonomy,
my right to think for myself, when what i believe does not agree
with what everyone else thinks i should believe?"
Access: PublicTagged with: god, religion, spirituality, beliefs, groupthink, indoctrination, mind-control, freedom, autonomy, truth
you have found your personal truth, within
do not inflict my beliefs with your truth
i don't have to believe what you do
we don't have to agree
your truth doesn't even vaguely resemble what i found within
that doesn't mean one of us is right and the other wrong
it only reflects the fact that we have different perspectives
we very well might be looking at the same thing
but there is no way of ever knowing that for certain.
i respect that your truth is true for you
please respect that my truth is true for me
and that it doesn't have to be the same as yours.
you speak clearly with strength. i love you and respect you and am glad you can be here without giving up any of your autonomy. No one here can tell you you have to believe anything if you choose not to hear. But you know that already.
likewise, i'm sure.
giggle
the problem, Nicole, is that those who proscribe to the dominant religion just assume that they are right and everyone else is wrong. my personal spirituality is incompatible with any religion, period. it is not that i refuse to listen to what they are saying, i have studied the words of great thinkers on the subject my entire life. the fact remains that an objective belief system cannot explain nor help me understand my subjective personal indescribable “religious” experiences.
I was driving to town earlier today, Stacy, and wondering what you define as groupthink. It was good to find your blog and hear more about what you think. When I write controversial blogs (or read other controversial blogs) it always seems like there's half the crowd saying “this is how it is” and the other half saying “no, no, you're wrong, this is how it is.” There never seems like there's consensus. It's always the yes vs. the no.
And then of course, there's degrees of “yes” vs. “no”. So that I perceive everybody as having an indivdual viewpoint. so maybe I'm not perceiving a level of groupthink that exists? Because it's hard to see that there's a consensus anywhere. Just wondered if you perceive it is a consenus of groupthink? thank you…. and of course, sorry, can't stop thinking, I am also wondering if there's a groupthink within the individual, as well…..?
I should probably take my time, but i want to go ahead and answer at least part of your question, Kathy. I am not Christian. all of my family is, all of my neighbors are, most of my friends are. Seeing as how Christianity is the dominant religion/culture, the members of that group do not even recognize that they proselytize, that they assume what they were taught to believe is true for everyone, and they see nothing wrong with it when it is pointed out to them. They inflict their belief system upon everyone else. they think that helps people. even according to the Tn state constitution, “freedom of religion” means you get to choose what kind of christian you want to be.
i do not believe in One Supreme Being, call it whatever name you want, i just don't. should i? just because everyone else does? what if i were to tell you that i have had certain experiences of The Divine, and the christian version of god had nothing at all to do with it? What if i were to tell you that i have read the Bible all the way through, more than once, looking for answers, and found none? should i still go along with everyone else's beliefs, just becuase that's what everyone else believes?
okay, with that as background information, guess we need to talk about groupthink some. wiki used to have a great entry on the subject, but it's had the spin put to it since…. in part, it involves believing that the members of your group are superior than people who are not in your group. (to say that some are “higher evolved” or “spiritually enlightened” is a prime example of this) groupthink also involves mind-control …. oh, but nobody wants to talk about that subject. i got some blogs i wrote, some articles i copied, too… mob enforcement of the rules. it involves giving away your freedom to act and think as you see fit in order to belong to the group. and that is my main problem, being an anarchist and all.
i gotta get some coffee, will give this more thought, i promise, and get back to ya' later on. check out some of my other posts. i might have archived the best from my old zaadz account, i'll look for that, too.
what you are describing is us versus them, another big problem i have… hahaha
the false divide. so everything gets lumped together in one conglomerated mess (call it god, that example works for me), and then what do we do? we divide it roughly in half good versus bad. hahahahaha
forming groups does not unify us, it divides us (us being all of humanity)! those who seek unity and world peace usually do so by forming some group or organization, and that act of separating themselves from others goes counter to the original intent of the group! but it feels good to be part of something, doesn't it? we don't want to be told how we are being manipulated and controlled, oh no, it's my choice, i'm doing the “right” thing, i care… yeah well, people need to start thinking about how the structure of our society harms humanity, rather than just taking it for granted that's how it is and how it should be and always will be.
I see my confusion. I'm sorry about that. I was thinking you were talking about here on Gaia not people in your area, or at large in society. That makes a lot more sense!
Thank you, Stacy, for clarifying more and sharing what you think. You really gave me much more to think about…. especially about the way groups don't unify us. Will ponder this some more.
i was, Nicole. seemingly everyone does it to some extent, everyone who justifies their beliefs with “the Bible says” … and you know good and well that is no different than “my teacher/guru says” … proselytizing is all the same religious indoctrination through fear of the consequences, regardless the outward appearance…. the worst are the ones who claim they don't do it, who think their religion is the ONE TRUTH that applies equally to all people, thus making it okay, this sort of religious exclusivism, it's even written into their rules (and they call it “helping” when they try to convert you to their beliefs)… you really don't think people at gaia do this? seriously? it seems so disgustingly obvious…. perhaps because i am not a follower of any religion? i don't know. they are all the same, newage crap is just the latest greatest flavor of the same religious control game, manipulating the masses into wanting to be compliant slaves to serve the masters…. fuck.
never mind. nobody wants to hear this shit anyway.
a different way of looking at it, then….
religion serves to prevent us from finding truth, within. sure, they say things to the contrary, they always do, them that tell lies. and the reason they tell those lies is because they are too afraid to find their own subjective truth, they feel that the objective Law that rules their lives should rule everyone's life. it's a lack of respect, mostly for themselves, they doubt their own ability to find their own truth. and it illustrates a profound lack of respect towards anyone and everyone who does not share their religious beliefs, to have this desire to convert, to preach their wisdom to others, thinking their subjective truth applies objectively to others.
it's about a lack of respect. gotta say it again, i suppose. because when you do find your own inner truth, it doesn't matter what anyone else says about it. you just KNOW. and knowing that your truth is not dependent upon what anyone else holds to be true, you gain respect for those who have found their own personal truth. this outrageous attempt to share your wisdom with others, to expect them to believe the things that are true for you, is symptom of a lack of connection to what is true. it's an ego thing.
Yes , Stacy, words not allways work, this is the pity of virtual world. It makes me suffer many times.
It's not only that words makes us think we don't agree when eventually agree, because this is easy to solve just talking a little more…………the worst is the oposite, people thinking they agree because of using the same words and probably never going to realize of the mistake. And when some ones use words with the intention to manipulate others , like when groups pushes individuals to use an unifomated language, all is still much more complicated.
To agree or not to agree is not the point for me, it's communication the same, and this is my goal, free people telling their truth speaking their own words, never on behalf others, never wanting others to think the same, just respecting.
Religions show their lack of respect to otherss not only when don't let them to speak, sometimes in a very aggresive way, but also when try to kindly indoctrinated them as if they were stupid or insane or children…repeating that they love you, of course…
I think people believing in a God would have to stop with their so called mission, and be respectful not only with others believing in other God, but also with those believing in any supersticion.I think many people invent new Gods just for not dearing to be too much different, and remain somehow into the imposed spiritual fashion…
If there was real freedom people would look like less uniformated than now, less “all are one”….where one is the lider of the group, of course.
If people stoped being scared of being alone, they would had the chance to discover there are other free individuals, and would realize the real solitude comes from joining liers.
thank you, Vicenta.
communication is not about reaching a consensus and calling it “truth”
communication is about trying to find your own words to describe your own experience, so that you may share it with others. not to convert them to the truth of what you know, but to learn more about the things you don't know. <3
and again, this song pertains here as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmWY28ITGfY
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
pros·e·ly·tize
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
*****
brain·wash·ing
a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs
it's called euphemism… get a grip.
not only that, but brainwashing is when you attempt to change an adult from one beleif system to another. when it is done to children we call it “education”
it happens all the time, everywhere, people don't just lie to others, they lie to themselves. pretend that what they do is okay because everyone does it, or pretend they aren't doing what everyone else is doing, or justify them doing it, because it's different when we do it, we are the good people and they're the bad ones.
the original meaning of the word “anarchy” meant freedom. so why is it that myspace blocks any images with that word in the filename? it violates their terms of use, apparently they think it is “violent and offensive material”
why is freedom not allowed?